Occam's Razor

Author	Comment
DaveNJEsq		#41	[-]
Posts: 134 (10/22/2008 11:48 AM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Detective Gitchell is having visions nightly, and in his visions Damien Echols is standing in the doorway to his room, taunting him for not finding proof of his involvement. Larner: Source on this? 1. I have read that JM re-confessed to Stidham and to prison guards. Is this true and if so under what conditions were these confessions made? 2. I have also read that JM has said that he was purposely being deceptive - trying to "lead them down the wrong path" or something along those lines. Is it possible that the essence of a confession can be true, details be damned? If we always cite that his IQ is two steps onto the short bus (sorry) should we be surprised that his confession is littered with inaccuracies? Johnny - If you've read them, read them again. These are not errors attributable to a low IQ. This is the interrogators telling him what to say. It is not subtle. It is not a close call. It does not leave one in doubt as to whether they are possibly true. They do not pass the laugh test except that it's so far from funny. I have more than enough billable work to do, if I wasn't convinced to a moral certainty that these statements are shit, and are the basis for these convictions, believe me I wouldn't be here. I'm not out there for Abu Jamal or many of the others who point to a few errors or inconsistencies in their convictions. Read the statements. Follow along on the audio. As a fellow attorney, we have a duty to the idea of justice, and while there are a few other cases I follow and am involved with (Tim Howard, Norfolk Four, Angola Three), this is the worst abortion of justice I've ever seen or heard of. Read the statements and follow along with the audio - Jessie's statements with audio & false confession articles
RCKx		#42	[-]
Posts: 96 (10/22/2008 12:36 PM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Larner, You wrote: "There is nothing at that point to tie Damien Echols to the scene at all--he doesn't live in the neighborhood, and spends most of his time out in Marion with Jason and Domini." He spent time in both Broadway Trailer Park and Lakeshore Trailer Park; one was his parent's house, the other his girlfriends. And Robin Hood is smack dab in the middle of those two parks'. Also, Marion and WM are pretty much "connected by Lakeshore"...they are basically the same town. Hell, WM tried to annex Marion a few years ago. Plus, Damien traveled only by foot around both WM and Marion. Which backs up Narlene Hollingsworth's statement about seeing Damien on the service road walking extremely close to the crime scene? "They hear lots of "Damien told my cousin who told my friend who told my brother who told me he did it" kind of rumors, and they get two kids to say Damien told them that Damien "confessed" to them, one of whom admits he made it up to appear important and one of whom insists that the police threatened to arrest him if he didn't say this. Meanwhile, all throughout the region kids are telling each other about how the police are certain that Damien did it,.." All throughout the region...huh? That's funny, I'm the same age, in the same grade, in the same school as the "Softball girls, Shannon Boals, Jennifer Ball, Amada Lancaster, etc. ( the rumor mill.)...and never heard Damien's name involved with the murders...and I had classes with those girls and knew/know them well. So, the so called rumor mill, that existed in Marion/WM, ain't what some folk make out to have been. "Damien Echols has become to me the symbol of all the kids who could have been pinned with this rap had they been living in the WM, Arkansas, area at the time." There were plenty of young teenagers who hung around Marion/WM and Lakeshore...who wore black heavy metal t-shirts...or who wore all black...or had the "goth" look. Damien was "pinned" with the crimes for a few of the following reasons: 1. Jessie Misskelley Jr. confessing to the crimes, implicating Damien... with details not known to public...yes, he contradicted himself several times in his statement. 2. The softball girls...one of which remains adament about the truth of what she said to this day (I know her very well) and believed Damien was not just "acting out" to get attention...but rather, confessing to the crimes. 3. The abili's the "3" failed to present for themselves in a believable manner...that is one of the main points I will always stress. Their alibi's were terrible....terrible. 4. Narlene's statement placing him very near the crime scene...the night of the murders...and he was wearing muddy clothes...hmmm? I assume Larner, you did not live in WM or Marion at the times of the crimes...or ever, so you would be real familar with the "rumor mill" or the "WMPD" and the "region" hearing about the demonic Damien Echols killin' dem three youngins'...??? Pleae Correct me if I'm wrong. RCKx
RCKx		#43	[-]
Posts: 97 (10/22/2008 3:29 PM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Larner, "Damien Echols has become to me the symbol of all the kids who could have been pinned with this rap had they been living in the WM, Arkansas, area at the time." Also, besides the image he potrayed by what he wore (you know all the black attire, but really the black trenchcoat in the extremely hot, sticky summers in the Delta)......what really seperated Damien from other local yokals' was his "pychotic state of mind" he also potrayed and PROMOTED...I think he would've stood out in almost any small town around the U.S., based on my travels throughout the country from the way he acted towards other human beings and himself? RCKx
Bitlippy		#44	[-]
Posts: 464 (10/22/2008 3:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dave the source is the movie ! gitchell actually says it live on camera i think its PL2 but will have to go back and check. there is no question he said it because it is there recorded for all time. he claimed that he had visitations from damien within weeks of the murder and knew it was him, that Damien came into hsi bedroomeach night. when nons talk about Damien knowing things about the crime others did not ............ he was questioned on the 7th May he was questioned and had head and pubic hair samples pulled on the 11 or 12th May. Now do they seriously think the police just knocked on his door pulled his jeans down and started reefing out pubic hairs without a word? he knew things others didn't because the police told him ! and yes i do believe he was bragging about it at the softball field but not as a confession but rather as a snide remark because people were asking if he did it and gossiping about him. why were they gossiping ? oh i dunno maybe because the police kept hauling him out asking him and going to all his neighbours saying he was a suspect ? the police had told jessie damien did it and set him and vicki up as their PI team to get the reward ! of course jessie is going to say Damien did it! the police had jessie convinced he would get 35,000 if he could get evidence on Damien, when the 'Vicki and Jessie sting' didnt work he decided to say he saw it !
larner		#45	[-]
Posts: 4806 (10/22/2008 4:30 PM) Resident Gremlin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You have asked for details on Jessie's "confessions." The first time he "confessed" was on June third, twenty-nine days after the murders. The WMPD had been unable to find sufficient evidence of anyone's involvement in the crime. He'd been brought to the attention of the WMPD by Vikki Hutchinson, who'd been brought in for questioning about her alleged misuse of customers' credit card numbers and was sitting there when the scanner announced the bodies had been found and at least one had been sexually mutilated. Vikki enlisted Jessie's help in gaining an intro to Damien and coaxing him into coming to her trailer so she could trick him into making a confession. He must have wondered why the weird dumb kid was approaching him, much less inviting him to the trailer of some woman he didn't know, but he went and nothing was learned. Jessie was questioned once, then as June started they decided to do a more in-depth questioning and asked his father to send him in the morning of the third. He came in saying he didn't know anything himself, but had heard that Damien and Robert Burch had done it together. Old news. they'd already told Burch they knew he hadn't done it. "Will you do a polygraph, Jessie?" they asked. It took a while to find Big Jessie and get his permission. Ten questions, one lie later, Officer Durham told them, "He's lying his ass off." They started in on him, insisting the polygraph machine showed his brain was telling them he was lying to them. They played a clip from Aaron Hutchinson's original interrogation on May sixth and implied that the child had seen the murders and implicated Jessie. They admit they showed him an autopsy photo, although Jessie has said they threw a stack of them at him and some fell to the floor, and his hand was stepped on by one of the officers when he leaned down to pick up the fallen photos. They drew a circle and put three dots in it and a lot of dots around it--"Where are you gonna stand, Jessie, in that circle of evil with Damien and Jason, or out here with us good folk?" He states there was a baseball bat in one of the rooms where he was questioned and one of the officers at one point picked it up and was slapping it into hiss hand. A photo taken later of the room where the polygraphs were administered shows that bat leaning against the wall, and the department has admitted it's often stored in those rooms--it belongs to the department softball team. After well over an hour he caved, and kept on caving. They took it to their chief and then to Judge Rainey, who was in the building at the time. He looked at it and said it would never do. They needed to have this and this and this point cleared up. Gitchell led the questioning when they returned to the room, once the recorder was restarted, "Now, what you REALLY said was this, wasn't it Jessie?" and suggested the opposite of what he'd said before. He agreed. When the questioning was over he was asked, "Are you afraid of Damien Echols, Jessie?" He answered, "No." When asked what he WAS afraid of, he answered, "The police." But now with the questions "cleared up" Rainey signed off on the arrest warrants. As they drove him to prison from the court immediately after his sentencing, Jessie was apparently questioned by the two sheriff's deputies who were taking him there. What they said to him to elicit it we don't know, but on arrival back at their office one of the deputies sent a message to the prosecutor's office stating that they'd gotten Jessie to "confess" again. It is most likely they convinced him that Stidham had steered him wrong in advising him not to testify and he wasn't likely to get out of prison unless he agreed to testify against Damien and Jason. The details they elicited sounds just like what Jessie had agreed to when questioned by Ridge, Allen, and Gitchell. The prosecutors arranged to meet with Jessie privately, although professional ethics requires them to have defense counsel with them when they do this. Not until they had Jessie convinced to testify against Damien and Jason did they call in Crow and Stidham, telling them Jessie was ready to make a new statement. Dan demanded to speak with Jessie alone and called for a Bible. He has indicated he asked Jessie to swear on that Bible that what he was going to say was true, and Jessie backed down, saying it wasn't true and now he wasn't going to say it for real. The prosecutors had Jessie moved to a different facility temporarily without advising Stidham and Crow, and met with him privately again over the space of three days. Then again they called Stidham and Crow in with the news again Jessie had agreed to make a new statement. This time Jessie wouldn't be talked out of it. He appeared angry and frightened, and his voice shows it when you listen to the audio. "I need to do something about this!" he declared. What is "this"? We're not certain, but we are reasonably sure that he'd been assured that Stidham was not working for his best interests and that he was offered a reduced sentence if he'd give the prosecution the statement and testimony they wanted. Certainly we can all see the video where he meets with the families to tell them he feels the case against Damien and Jason is weak and they might have to offer a deal to Jessie to get him to testify. The place he describes is no longer a steep-sided, wooded gully with a shallow, muddy, stagnant drainage ditch at the bottom. Instead he says he crossed over a bridge and entered the woods--a bridge that doesn't exist at the BB woods but DOES a quarter mile or so down the road into the RHH woods on the neighborhood side of the drainage canal. What he describes has water clean and deep enough for Jason and Damien to be playing about in it, ducking under to go down on one another. A good deal of the statement is again led by the prosecutors, who at times are falling all over one another spinning scenarios to which Jessie agrees. Now there is one detail that was withheld from the public that they could have invoked in order to prove or disprove Jessie's story--one of the children's shoes still had its shoelace in it. All they had to do was ask him if all the shoelaces had been removed. Some folk believe the perpetrator used a separate shoelace, perhaps from his own shoes, as the sixth ligature; others that one of the shoelaces was cut in half, perhaps the one to the matching shoe to that which still had its lace in it when found. Savekius used the term "piece" when describing one of the ligatures, so it is possible but not truly known that one of the laces was cut. Some newer supporters have come to believe this did happen, but in reality we DON'T KNOW. In all the mishmash of questions and interruptions it's not truly clear whether Jessie and Jason together or Jessie alone was removing the laces--he indicates both scenarios happened. Again, we don't know if Jason and Damien or Damien alone was tying the children, who at that point were dead or dying--definitely all senseless and still. Nor does he even try to explain why they bothered to tie the children at this point, and particularly in a manner that would not truly restrain them. He was asked why in his initial statement he'd said the children were tied up with brown rope, and at that point he said it was to throw the police off. Throw them off? Throw them off what? What would throw them off about saying the wrong type of material when he's "admitting" the children were being tied? If Jessie was removing laces, why not ask him which shoes he took the laces from, and how many from each pair? They didn't. Had he said they left one lace in one shoe, THEN they might have a level of corroboraion for what he said. Had he said they cut one of the laces, and IF one of them had indeed been cut, that would have been a level of corroboration. Had he said one of the teens had used his own shoelace or had one in his pocket and used that, that would have been a level of corroboration. But he never said, and they never asked. In both statements he said they dropped the children into the ditch, and one could be seen "wriggling like a worm" as he sank--EXCEPT the shallowness of the water was shown by Ridge crawling in the ditch on his hands and knees, and nothing could be seen further than an inch under its surface as shown by the photos taken by the police themselves. Want to explain how Jessie was sure he saw one of the boys wriggling? Plus, Chris and Steve were definitely and deliberately pushed face-down into the mud, with a footprint being discernible on the back of the head of one of them. We aren't completely certain about Michael because of how his body was found. Again, compare the photos of the gully at the time to Jessie's statements. They don't match. "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR I mourn for this nation. Trolls destroy communities.
larner		#46	[-]
Posts: 4806 (10/22/2008 4:30 PM) Resident Gremlin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Stupid, twitchy connection! Sorry about that! This time it was my turn to have a comment post itself thrice! "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR I mourn for this nation. Trolls destroy communities. Last Edited By: larner 10/22/2008 9:16 PM. Edited 1 times.
larner		#47	[-]
Posts: 4808 (10/22/2008 4:39 PM) Resident Gremlin Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	RCKx, you might read on Callahans the transcripts of interviews with teenagers that the police made. Perhaps you didn't hear all that much, but it appears that a lot of other folk heard a good deal. "Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." LOTR I mourn for this nation. Trolls destroy communities. Last Edited By: larner 10/22/2008 9:27 PM. Edited 1 times.
Mary7875		#48	[-]
Posts: 184 (10/22/2008 4:45 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	johnnythechef wrote: (Bitlippy, let's talk when youre done chasing your tail.) I'm sorry. This is way off topic & I'm probably going to get in trouble for it but... Bwahahahahaaaaaaaaaa! Just had to get it off my chest. I'm ok now.
Mary7875		#49	[-]
Posts: 185 (10/22/2008 5:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bitlippy wrote: Dave the source is the movie ! gitchell actually says it live on camera i think its PL2 but will have to go back and check. there is no question he said it because it is there recorded for all time. he claimed that he had visitations from damien within weeks of the murder and knew it was him, that Damien came into hsi bedroomeach night. Oh, for crying out loud. Gitchell did not say he literally had visitations from Damien. This is what he said: "At the time it was an emotional roller coaster - ups and downs, ups and downs - and that just wears you out. Two to three weeks into the case, I was personally feeling like Damien was responsible for this, and I got to the point that I could see him at the doorway of my bedroom. That probably had a lot to do with being exhausted physically and no sleep, but becoming even a little paranoid and terrified myself." He saw three little boys horribly murdered and mutilated & was subsisting on little or no sleep. Ya think he's gonna have sweet dreams when he closes his eyes? Gitchell also said this: "There's never been a moment that I ever doubted that we did not arrest the right individuals. Never in my mind. Never been a doubt...if there was doubt in my mind, I would be in the police department. I'd still be working the case."
boohiss13		#50	[-]
Posts: 4040 (10/22/2008 5:32 PM) Booty Queen Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*WARNING: LONG ASS POST!* *RCKx:* *1. Jessie Misskelley Jr. confessing to the crimes, implicating Damien... with details not known to public...yes, he contradicted himself several times in his statement.* Misskelley DID NOT GIVE INFO THAT WAS NOT KNOWN TO THE PUBLIC. Nothing. The manner is which they THOUGHT the boys were killed had been made public the morning the bodies were found, as the family members were told, then later, even the local paper picked up police discussion on one of their police radios and had the details in the next day's paper. That one of the boys was cut "down there" was suggested to Misskelley with a gesture. The comments made about any head injuries starts with a suggestion as well, to which Jessie then states that one of the boys was held in a "headlock". Again, there's nothing in his statements that wasn't public knowledge. Also, he did just a little bit more than contradict himself a few times. In fact, the statement was SO error filled, that Ridge's first attempt to get warrants for Echols & Baldwin failed. The Judge even found the statement full of too much error to even give warrants. Ridge then had to return and Gitchell went in to get Jessie to commit to a time of day the murders happened, since he claimed THREE DIFFERENT TIMES in his first statement. And as far as what sunk these guys, JESSIE'S "CONFESSION" SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PART OF THE DECISION MAKING IN THE ECHOLS/BALDWIN TRIAL AS IT WASN'T ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE. However, we know now that it in fact WAS talked about, at the very least, WHICH IS JURY MISCONDUCT. 2. The softball girls...one of which remains adament about the truth of what she said to this day (I know her very well) and believed Damien was not just "acting out" to get attention...but rather, confessing to the crimes. The Softball Girls statements and then testimony DIRECTLY contradict one another, which should have rendered them questionable at least and flat out lies at most. I'm cutting and pasting in a post I made about the Soft Ball Girls several years back (you'll see that I'm speaking to Fwar). It covers the contradiction, the fact that the info they had WAS NOT INFO NOT KNOWN TO THE PUBLIC, but in fact had been reported to police twice before the Soft Ball Girls. Here it is, and it's a bit long: *http://p210.ezboard.com/f...mp;start=101&stop=115* *Fwar:* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Softball girls credible = Yes, wishful thinking does not change that.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Oh, I beg to disagree. And this is going to be a long post, but it will finally show you exactly why I don't find them credible. Also, the statments will show you that people DID know about the "confession" of Damien's before the Softball Girls supposedly heard it at the ball field; weeks before, in fact. *The testimony I'm quoting is not always fluid; there are snips.* *Jodee Meford's mother testifies that the date her daughter heard Damien at the ball field was around Memorial Day, which was th 24th of May.* *Jodee Medford (Softball Girl)* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Medford: No, I was just walking around the corner, gonna go talk to some of my friends and I saw him and I heard him.* *Davidson: Ok. Who were you with?* *Medford: Noone. By myself.* *Davidson: Nobody. Um - were you with uh - uh - Miss VanVickle that just testified?* *Medford: No, we weren't together.* *Davidson: You weren't together?* *Medford: No sir.* *http://p210.ezboard.com/f...mp;start=101&stop=112* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Ok, notice here that Jodee CLEARLY states that her and Christy Van Vickle were NOT together when she heard Damien say this.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: Is she a friend of yours?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: And did she come home with you all that night?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: Did you see her when this was said?* *Medford: I saw her telling my mom when I went to tell my mom.* *Ok, here she says when she see's Christy is when she goes to tell her mother about what Damien said.* *Davidson: Ok. Did - when you say you heard this conversation, did you see, uh - Christy?* *Davidson: Ok. Did - when you say you heard this conversation, did you see, uh - Christy?* *Medford: Uh uh.* *Davidson: She wasn't around?* *Medford: No sir.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Ok, again, she repeats that she was ALONE when she heard Damien.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: 6 or 7. And who were these 6 or 7 people?* *Medford: I don't know.* *Davidson: Don't know 'em at all?* *Medford: No sir.* *Davidson: Could you pick them out today, if they were in the courtroom?* *Medford: No sir.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Medford will say that this night was the first night she had EVER seen Damien; she could remember him, and what HE looked like, but NO ONE else? I find this odd.* *Medford: No sir.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: So, what time was it that you heard this statement?* *Medford: Probably about 6:30.* *Davidson: At 6:30?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: Do you know what day this was?* *Medford: No sir* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Here she now does not know what DAY it was that she saw Damien and heard him.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: Who else did you see there?* *Medford: That's - just them two.* *Davidson: Who?* *Medford: Just them two.* *Davidson: Nobody else?* *Medford: Umm.* *Davidson: Think about it.* *Medford: No, that's all.* *Davidson: In your earlier statement, didn't you say that uh - Heather was there standing right by him? You want to look at this?* *Medford: Oh, yes sir, she was - she was standing right by him.* *Davidson: Oh ok, so now you - now you're remembering that?* *Medford: Yes sir* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Ok, now she starts to change her testimony from what she gave in her statement. Now she says Heather was standing BY him, whereas earlier in testimony AND in her earlier statement, she states over and over, that she was alone. *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: In your earlier statement, you said you were with your sister, Jackie, didn't ya? You want to look at that? Right under the pink part.* *Medford: I wasn't with her, but when I walked around, I saw - like at the corner with my mom. Talking to my mom.* *Davidson: Oh, so - so when you made this earlier statement, this just wasn't right then, is that right? You weren't with her, is that right?* *Medford: Right.* *Davidson: Ok. And you also said that you were with her friend, Christy VanVickle.* *Medford: Um hmm.* *Davidson: Well, is that not right either?* *Medford: They were talking to my mom, at the corner.* *Davidson: So when you heard this, you weren't with them?* *Medford: Right.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Here she is changing the statement again, but not really making any sense.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: You don't remember. Did uh - did you and your mom go to the police station then?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: That night?* *Medford: No, not that night.* *Davidson: When did you go to the police station?* *Medford: I guess like, (pausing)* *Davidson: Was it the day you made this statement?* *Medford: Um - no, the day I went, she wrote it.* *Davidson: Would it been - have been on the 7th day of June?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: So, that's after you had seen this on tv, isn't it?* *Medford: No sir.* *Davidson: No sir?* *Medford: Uh uh.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Ok, here she says that SHE HAD NOT SEEN DAMIEN ON TV before she made her statement to police.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *pause)* *Medford: Well, I think -* *Davidson: When was the first -* *Medford: - Yes, yes it was, 'cause I was like, babysitting and I saw him on tv and I called my mom and told her that that was him and she said "Ok."* *Davidson: Ok, so only after you saw something on tv did you contact the police, is that what you're telling us?* *Medford: But, I had told my mom, yes sir.* *Davidson: You had told your mom. You and your mom hadn't talked with the police before then, had ya?* *Medford: No sir.* *Davidson: Ok* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Now, her statement and testimony changes, and she remembers seeing Damien on tv before giving her statement to police.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: In the statement that you gave to the police, is it true that you said, "That was the first time I ever seen Damien and the next night, he was there, too."* *Medford: Um hmm.* *Davidson: Well, did you see him that next night?* *Medford: Yes sir.* *Davidson: Well that's not true then, now is it? You saw him more than once then.* *Medford: No, the first night I saw him was the night that he said that.* *Davidson: And - but earlier, I can't, uh - in our testimony, in what you said here today, you said that's the only time you've ever seen him. Now, which is it?* *Medford: It was the first time I seen him, not the only time.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Now, she changes AGAIN. This is getting really confusing to me now; she can't seem to make up her mind.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: What about uh - who else was there with you?* *Medford: With me?* *Davidson: Yes.* *Medford: At the girl's club?* *Davidson: Um hmm.* *Medford: Jessica and Jackie and Christy and my mom.* *Davidson: Who is Katie Hendrix?* *Medford: My cousin.* *Davidson: And wasn't she there, too?* *Medford: Yes sir, but we didn't bring her or anything.* *Davidson: Ok. What did he say the next night?* *Medford: He didn't - I didn't - I wasn't around him.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Again, she's changing, possibly. You can't tell: is she saying he was at the ball park again the next night and she just wasn't near him (what she seems to be saying to me), or he wasn't there at all? You can't really tell for sure. *Testimony of Christy Van Ickle* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Fogleman: Ok. And did you hear somebody say something about the murders of the three little boys?* *VanVickle: Yes sir.* *Fogleman: Alright. What did you hear the person say?* *VanVickle: I heard, um - Damien Echols say that he killed the three boys.* *Fogleman: Ok. And where were you, was he saying that to you or what were you doing?* *VanVickle: I was walking by with my friend.* *Fogleman: And who is your friend?* *VanVickle: Jackie Medford* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Here, Christy Van Vickle says THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT JODEE MEDFORD TESTIFIED TO; and that is that she was WITH Jodee; Jodee says she wasn't.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: Ok. Um - first of all, do you remember what day this was that you heard this?* *VanVickle: No sir.* *Davidson: Don't remember when it was, what day of the week was it on?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Christy, just like Jodee, can't remeber the date or even the day of the week they heard this. Now, normally this wouldn't be a big deal; time passes. But there were points of reference, ball games, that could've helped them with figuring out what day they heard this or at least an estimate, IMO. *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *VanVickle: I had - we were walking back from the concession stand.* *Davidson: Walking back from the concession to - what did you have with you?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *Davidson: Did you buy anything there?* *VanVickle: I can't remember* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Now, she can't even remember if she bought something at the concession, and if she did, what it was.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: All the people there. And, uh - what else did he say?* *VanVickle: That's all I heard him say 'cause it scared me so I ran off.* *Davidson: You took off running?* *VanVickle: Um - I went on.* *Davidson: You went on or did you run? Which one did you do?* *VanVickle: I don't know, I can't remember.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Once AGAIN, she cannot recall what she did; run off or walk away. Seems like a pretty simple question to me.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: Can't remember that. Did - what did he say before you say that he said he killed those three boys, what did he say before that?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *Davidson: What did he say after that?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *Davidson: And how close were you to him?* *VanVickle: I wasn't close.* *Davidson: You weren't close. Did he scream it?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *Davidson: Did he yell it?* *VanVickle: I don't know.* *Davidson: So you don't know how close you were to him?* *VanVickle: Uh uh.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* I think this part speaks for itself. She can't remember anything he said before OR after the statement, nor can she recall what tone of voice he said it in; did he yell?……she also says she doesn't even know how close she was to him. *I'm sorry, but even a child this young, should be able to remember more detail than this, IMO, of course. This is EXTREMELY vague.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Davidson: Ok. Now, there was a police officer out there that night, wasn't there?* *VanVickle: Yes sir.* *Davidson: After you heard this, did you walk over to the police officer and tell him that?* *VanVickle: No sir.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Now THIS is the oppostie of what Jodee says; Jodee testifies that she DIDN"T see a police officer.Once again, stories totally different. I also find it a tad bit odd that a police officer was standing RIGHT THERE, and she could have told him. Earlier, she says she ran away in fear……but if she was scared, why not tell the cop? But, then, after that, she says she can't remember if she ran away, in fear, or just walked off. ALSO, I find it DAMN hard to believe that Damien would be holding court with up to TEN PEOPLE (reported by the girls), and 1) None ONE of these other people that he was confessing to EVER made statements to the police, and 2) If Damien was guilty (and I don't think he is, of course) WHY in the HELL would he be announcing that he killed the boys, loud enough for a small crowd to hear him, and do it RIGHT NEAR A POLICEMAN? *Davidson: When did you finally tell somebody about this?* *VanVickle: About a few weeks or a week after I heard it.* *Davidson: Ok. And it was after, uh - Damien had been arrested, is that correct?* *VanVickle: Yes sir.* *Here, I have a hard time believing that these girls heard that he committed these murders, and then didn't go to police until weeks afterwards.* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Fogleman: About where I am?* *VanVickle: Um hmm.* *Fogleman: So maybe uh, 15 or 20 feet, something like that?* *VanVickle: Yes sir.* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Think about 15 to 20 feet. Anyone would need to be speaking at a fairly good volume of voice for you to hear them clearly, as they were surrounded by up to 10 people, and also, the ballpark was full of people…all of whom would've been making noise that he had to speak over, loud enough, to get to Christy, who's 15-20 feet away. *For a point of reference, Damien made his statements to the WMPD on May 10th, and only FOUR days later, is when Joni Brown hears this statement:* *The Statement of Joni Brown (not a Softball girl, btw)* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* On Friday night, May 14th, about 8:30 p.m. or 9:00 p.m. Whitney Nix told me that Robert Burch had told her that him and Dameon Echols had murderd them three boys and that they were gonna murder 2 more kids before they turned themselves in to the police. And Jennifer Ashley told me before Whitney did. And then a guy came up to me and told me that he suggested that I stay away from them guys. *J.E.B.* *I have written this statement consisting of 1 page(s), and I affirm to the truth and accuracy of the facts contained therein.* *This statement was completed at 3:39 p.m., on the 22 day of May, 1993.* *WITNESS: Bill Durham* *[signed] Joni Brown* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *Here is a bit from Robert Burch's statement:* *Quote:* *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* ROBERT STATED THAT HE HAD HEARD THAT THE WRENS HAD DONE THE MURDERS. ROBERT FURTHER STATED THAT HE HEARD THAT FRANKIE KNIGHT HAS SAID THAT DAVID WREN IS THE PERSON WHO KILLED THE BOYS ALONG WITH SOME OF HIS FRIENDS BUT THAT THIS WAS ONLY A RUMOR THAT HE HAD HEARD. ROBERT ALSO STATED THAT HE THOUGHT THAT FRANKIE MAY HAVE WATCHED THE MURDERS BUT, AGAIN HE SAID THAT WAS ONLY A RUMOR. ROBERT STATED THAT HE WAS AT THE SKATING RINK LAST NIGHT AND THAT HE SAID JASON BALDWIN WAS THERE. JASON BALDWIN STATED THAT SOME PRIVATE DETECTIVES HAD STATED THAT HE AND JASON WERE THE ONES WHO DID THE MURDERS. ROBERT SAID THAT HE KNEW JASON FROM WHEN HE USED TO LIVE AT HIGHLAND TRAILER PARK AND THAT HE ALSO KNOWS ANOTHER JASON BALDWIN WHO LIVES IN THE AREA OF STEWART STREET IN WEST MEMPHIS. THE JASON BALDWIN WHO MADE THE STATEMENT ABOUT THE MURDERS LIVES IN LAKESHORE TRAILER PARK AND IS A LOT SKINNIER. *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------* *A great example of how the rumors were flying.* *Ok, this is what those statements give:* 1) The rumor that Damien had said 'I killed the three boys; I plan to kill two more, then turn myself in", was already being repeated. So, it CANNOT be said that the Softball Girls were the only ones to have heard this. Joni is saying that on May 14 she was told about this…….the Soft Ball girls said they heard him say this, approximately two-three weeks later (date is not clear, but the Mother states she thought it was before Memorial Day). So, it is now CLEAR that it is POSSIBLE that these girls could have heard about Damien's "confession", through the very active grape vine. 2) There are HUGE differences in between what Jodee says and what Christy says; in fact, they tell the complete OPPOSITE of stories: one says she was with the other, the other says she was alone. The testimony of Medford and Van Vickle (Jodee and Christy) is vague AS HELL to me. They can't agree on what happened. Neither can remember what day it was. No one can say anything else Damien said, just those TWO sentences or so; they can't even say what volume his voice was at. And the fact that the "confession" they repeated was already making the rounds on the rumor mill, it is my opinion that this is where they heard it. I think they got in over their heads, maybe saying something to be a part of something, or get attention, but when it went to far, they felt they couldn't back out. *Again, of course, this only my opinion, but I think it's a good description of why I do have such a problem with these girls testimony and statements.* *So Fwar, yes, people DID know about Damien's so-called "confession" before the Soft Ball Girls ever heard it.* *3. The abili's the "3" failed to present for themselves in a believable manner...that is one of the main points I will always stress. Their alibi's were terrible....terrible.* Jason's alibi was actually very solid. Ford just felt anyone he'd put up there would fall apart. That's being presented as a issue showing the ineffectiveness of his counsel during the original trial now, as part of Jason's Rule 37 hearings. *4. Narlene's statement placing him very near the crime scene...the night of the murders...and he was wearing muddy clothes...hmmm?* There's more to Narlene's situation that night than was originally reported and it wasn' t focused on, and that's that they had just seen a car accident, which they were later questioned about in regards to a lawsuit. There isn't much on this, because, as I said, it was never focused on. Also, originally, Narlene's own husband said that she couldn't see worth a damn, more or less, and HE didn't even buy her statement that she'd seen Damien & Domini. At trial they tried to insist that Narlene was mistaken, and it wasn't DOMINI and Damien she saw, but JASON and Damien……..but, being that Domini was related to Narlene….I'd think she'd know the difference, don't you? I mean, Domini has this flaming red hair and Jason's blonde? If Narlene could see mud on their jeans, then she should've been able to tell what color the person's hair was, or at least see if it was darker or not……IMO. Last Edited By: boohiss13 10/22/2008 6:43 PM. Edited 1 times.
DaveNJEsq		#51	[-]
Posts: 137 (10/22/2008 5:46 PM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Two to three weeks into the case, I was personally feeling like Damien was responsible for this Wow - thanks. I'll update my post on whether the WMPD were acting in good faith. Based on what, "detective"? A hunch? A false rumor about cults and satanism and black clothing? Based on what could this conclusion be reached "two to three weeks into the case"? The whole quote.... Yes, I guess I was 100% right that at some point the investigation stopped being about "who did this" and became "how can we prove Damien did this"? I have to admit that I never actually watched all of PL2 - didn't consider either of them to be legitimate documentaries - right result in questioning the verdicts, but their implications through clever editing that Mark was responsible (etc) turned me off.
astabasta		#52	[-]
Posts: 427 (10/22/2008 6:59 PM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What scenario is more plausible: A: That the boys were murdered in the woods they were last seen entering? B: That they were murdered elsewhere and dumped in the woods they were last seen entering? I have no problem using Occam´s Razor here, thus opting for A.
boohiss13		#53	[-]
Posts: 4043 (10/22/2008 8:28 PM) Booty Queen Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you apply that logic to the entire case though.......well, throughout this case are strange occurances and just flat out WEIRD CRAP. "Abnormal" seemed to be the norm in this case, no? The most plausible never seemed to apply.
Mara40		#54	[-]
Posts: 234 (10/23/2008 12:48 AM) WM3DB Member Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have to admit that I never actually watched all of PL2 - didn't consider either of them to be legitimate documentaries I agree with this Dave. I thought PL 2 was not well done, biased and sensationalised with an unhelpful focus on Mark Byers. PL 1 was interesting as an introduction to the case and certianly ignited my curiosity to find out more. "Taken out of context, I must seem very strange" - Ani DiFranco
Bitlippy		#55	[-]
Posts: 466 (10/23/2008 1:59 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mary i notice you ignored this part: " becoming even a little paranoid and terrified myself." i am assuming you will concede that paranoia is a symptom of mental illness or at least admit when people are terrified and paranoid they are incapable of sound decisions ? now the point is you nons claim they investigated others here is Gitchell saying you guys made it up ! what normal grown man gets on TV telling people he has hallucinations of Damien visiting him in hisbedroom couldn't Damien have dropped in to the kitchen for a cuppa or maybe the backyard for a bbq ? oh no he was right there in the bedroom. Mary try not to sensationalise, Gitchell did not witness the murders. as you claim. You know what makes me laugh? Damien says Rosey visited his bedroom and the nons say that is proof of insanity but Damien visits Gitchell and thats good detective work! not saying they are hypocrites or anything...................
Bitlippy	Gitchell waiting for his nightly visitor	#56	[-]
Posts: 467 (10/23/2008 2:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	maybe damien was attracted by the amount of 'satin' or maybe Mary was right and Gitchell witnessed the murders ! that red rayon fibre looks familiar
emmaline		#57	[-]
Posts: 179 (10/23/2008 2:16 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Bit, I think what Mary was implying was that Gitchell has seen three little boys who had been murdered and mutilated, not that he'd actually seen it happen. I think this proves that Gitchell is crazy, because yes he was under a lot of stress and was very sleep deprived. However, I don't know why Gitchell chose to bring it up, because regardless of who he 'saw' in his bedroom at night, it doesn't prove guilt or have any relevance to the case whatsoever haha.
Bitlippy		#58	[-]
Posts: 470 (10/23/2008 2:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Emmaline Mary does tend to gild the lily somewhat and her bosom clutching posts do try to depict way more than she could actually know to be fact so i am never sure with her. Mary I think the whole sleep deprivation is bollocks ! he wasnt exactly burning the midnight oil, where was he the night they went missing ? oh that's right he was home in bed watching the twilight zone ( okay specualtion) where was he the next night ? home in bed ! waiting on autopsy reports ! and watching ( psychic detectives no doubt) hmmmm ok speculation again he may have been watching John Edwards. i am not too sure how he got so tired it certainly wasnt over work. to me gitchell is just a narrow minded bigot who picked Damien because he looked different and despite all the denials and all the bullshit about evidence being the reason they were convicted not one single non can produce one single shred of evidence ! so until they can prove otherwise i think they are all just small town bigots no matter where they come from. the case against Damien - he was a smart arse - he had been in a psych ward - the case against Jessie - he went too far trying to get the reward the case against jason - he couldnt account for his time between 6.45 and 7 pm no hair no DNA no fibre matches no weapons so if you feel so strongly that they did it then why not present your case instead of just nitpicking every post i make ? or else you could be the non who steps up and explains hobbs having no alibi .................. waiting ..........tick .......tock
newman		#59	[-]
Posts: 257 (10/23/2008 6:32 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The first time he "confessed" was on June third, twenty-nine days after the murders. It seems odd that someone would insist there were no prior confessions despite the claims of multiple witnesses? I could almost understand someone saying they don't believe these witnesses, but it seems more than a little silly to demand they were factually lying. Especially given the fact that Misskelley went on to confess again and again.
Bitlippy		#60	[-]
Posts: 471 (10/23/2008 7:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	can you link to the testimony of all these people he confessed to prior to confessing to the police because surely they would have been subpoenaed to appear in court to corroborate the confession ..................if they were believable and if it ever happened of course. they all reported this to the police before he confessed ? surely ! i mean they would have had to do that or it would sound like they were making it up !!!

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