DEE DEE SALLINGS

having been first duly sworn to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. HARBERG:

Q: Ms. Sallings, could you please state your name for the record?

A: Dee Dee Sallings.

Q: Is that S-A-L-L --

A: Yes. S-A-L-L-I-N-G-S.

Q: Where do you reside?

A: Little Rock, Arkansas.

Q: Give me a little bit about your education. Your degree in college was in what?

A: I have a Bachelor in Arts degree from Hendrix College. My degree was in psychology.

Q: You obtained your law degree in what year?

A: 1986. I obtained my law degree from the University of Arkansas Law School at Little Rock. I passed the bar exam that summer.

Q: While you were in law school, did you clerk anywhere?

A: I worked for Wilson and Engstrom, now Wilson, Engstrom, and

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Dudley in Little Rock. Bill Wilson and Steve Engstrom.

Q: That was primarily your second and third year of law school?

A: That was for three years. All through law school.

Q: After law school, where did you work?

A: I worked for Wilson and Engstrom until September of 1986 when I began working at the public defender's office in Pulaski County.

Q: What type of work did you do?

A: When I was with the Pulaski County Public Defender's Office, I was in charge of all the capital murder cases for Pulaski County. I was also in charge of supervising all of the appellate work, and I had cases other than capital cases. But every capital case that came through was my responsibility.

Q: In approximately how many capital cases did you work on?

A: When I was in the public defender's office, I tried -- well, actual trials for death cases I tried eleven. After I left the public defender's office, I had a brief time at the A.G.'s Office. Then I went to the new Federal Resource Center that assists in capital murder cases, and I tried four there. So I have tried fifteen or sixteen.

Those are actual trials with death cases. As far as preparation for cases that did not go to trial -- that ended in something short of a death trial, I have done probably twenty of those.

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Q: So you have done actually twenty cases where the death penalty was sought originally and then later wasn't?

A: Right. In addition to the others.

Q: Did you assist in cases outside of Pulaski County?

A: At the Arkansas Death Penalty Resource Center I assisted in death cases throughout the State.

Q: Would those include trials --

THE COURT: That's enough on her experience.

BY MS. HARBERG:

Q: Tell me what type of involvement, preparation, investigation it takes for a capital case?

A: A lot of it depends on the complexity, obviously, of the case. I would say a person like myself who has tried a lot of cases would require perhaps less time to prepare for a case. A person who has never tried a case is going to have to do a lot of research and background in investigation and that sort of thing just on issues, just to narrow down their issues. In my experience the cases I tried -- the more complex cases in Pulaski County -- I would say I spent eight hundred to a thousand hours working up the case, and that's including all the way through trial.

In a local case -- it's my understanding in this case the witnesses are local. The victims are local. You're not going to have as much travel time finding your witnesses so I would say your hours might be less.

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But if you have never tried a capital case, then your hours are going to be more extensive in that there's a lot of things you don't know that you have got to learn.

Q: Based on your knowledge of criminal law and your experience in participating in almost twenty capital cases, how much would you charge if you were retained in the private sector as a defense attorney?

A: Again, a lot of that goes along with my experience. If I personally were retained in a private case, I would say a reasonable fee would be 70, 75 dollars an hour because of the number of hours you're going to be billing. It's not going to be like you work thirty hours and you are through. The number of hours times seventy-five dollars an hour would be significant. When I first started, I don't think I would have been worth that much because I would waste a lot of time doing things that didn't lead anywhere.

Q: If you didn't have the education you have with your psychology degree and you didn't have the background in criminal law and your experience in trying capital cases, what would you charge then?

A: I would say thirty to forty dollars an hour, something like that.

Q: When you first started working in the public defender's office in Pulaski County, were you making thirty dollars an hour?

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A: No. We were paid a flat salary, and I think based upon a forty hour week were were paid something like eighteen dollars an hour. I don't know exactly, but it was somewhere around there.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. PRICE:

Q: Miss Sallings, is the federal habeas corpus rate for death penalty cases a hundred and twenty-five dollars an hour?

A: I do not know because I have not been appointed in federal court. I only worked at the resource center.

Q: You're familiar with the CJA, the act that pays for federal appointed lawyers?

A: Yes.

Q: Normally in Arkansas that pays forty dollars out of court and sixty dollars in court?

A: Yes.

Q: You are not aware if it is a hundred and twenty-five dollars an hour for death cases?

A: I'm not aware.

Q: Has Crittenden County been certified by the Public Defender Commission yet?

A: We have just come in existence so we have not done so yet. I would, if I may add, that our office is available for resources and assistance, but I just started September first. So we're fledgling at this time.

Q: Is part of your office -- if your office would have been in

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place back in June, are some of your lawyers in your office actually appointed to defend defendants in capital murder cases throughout Arkansas?

A: Our office is set up to do that. At this point my office is me and one other lawyer. So at this point we're not set up to do that. Ultimately and very soon, hopefully, we will be.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. FORD:

Q: In these number of hours that you indicated that you worked preparing a case for trial, did you have someone in your -- who worked at the public defender office or the other organizations you mentioned that did investigative work and background work?

A: At the Death Penalty Resource Center we had an investigator. At the public defender's office we had an investigator who was essentially a subpoena server. In a death case I would not feel comfortable delegating the responsibility of investigating and working at mitigation to anyone else. So no, I did it all myself, and I think that's essential, personally.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. HARBERG:

Q: You said that your office would be available to serve as a resource. Could you expand on what you mean by that?

A: As far as my knowledge, doing research, helping with motions, helping work up mitigation, helping work up

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instructions -- short of coming and actually trying it we can help in any way.

Q: Would that include help in preparing motions?

A: Right.

THE COURT: I don't think they need any help on motions.

BY THE WITNESS:

A: As far as working out voir dire questions and making sure the record was preserved for purposes of appeal, if it gets to that, we would be available for that.

(WITNESS EXCUSED)